Michelle Zauner has had a busy few years. From creating a soundtrack for a video game to writing her first book to completing her latest record, you would assume she’d want some peace and quiet. You’ll be happy to hear that she appreciates having something to take her mind off things, as intrusive thoughts wage a battle for most, but with Zauner, the loss of her mother is a tragedy that no one really overcomes. However, her newest LP, Jubilee, sees Zauner taking a new approach to life, looking at all the qualities that may have been overshadowed by the dark themes of death and loss on her previous two albums. The tunes are more poppy, yet the record stays true to honesty and truth-seeking tales that any fan would be eager to listen to. I was grateful to get a few minutes with her to talk about everything from the the overbearing nature of loss to the central theme of her new record. She’s one of the most kind souls that I’ve ever had the pleasure of talking with, and I hope you see why. After you read, I encourage you to show support by streaming the new album which comes out on June 4th, buying Zauner’s book, Crying In H Mart, and purchasing a ticket to see Jbrekkie on tour. Make it all three! Please enjoy.

You grew up on great bands that were also local heroes for yourself like Modest Mouse and Built to Spill, listening to them throughout college as well. At what point did it sort of hit you that playing music could be a career choice and not just something you did for fun?

• I think I started getting involved with bands in college. I mean, I definitely had great ambitions when I was like 16, but the first time I started playing in a band, I was like a sophomore, junior in college. I was also kind of encouraged by my bandmates to take it very seriously. More seriously than I had taken it when I was on my own. But the band disbanded when we graduated college then I had this other band, Little Big League, that I also took very seriously for a few years. And then I don't think I like really got to the point where I realized this was my job until I was like 25.

And you’ve described your music process as being therapeutic for yourself, especially the first two LPs. What about the method of making music does this for you?

• I think part of it was writing stuff down. Finding the right words that explained what I was feeling. When I was going through that time, I don't think I, you know, it's like such a meditative process to just sit and write about what you're feeling. It's not a normal thing that people do all the time. So I think that that was helpful. And I think, just generally having a large project to stay grounded and focused on was very therapeutic. 

Does that sort of therapy relate to the feelings you describe in your book, Crying in H Mart, particularly when you enter the store and feel the need to sob?

• Yeah, I think for a while, it was really hard for me to remember my mom before she got sick, because, you know, I moved away from home when I was 18. The last concentrated period of time I had spent with my mom was as a caretaker when she was going through chemotherapy. So, you know, it was really sad to me that all my memories of my mother were through the chemotherapy process. When I went to H Mart, it was like the first time I started having happier memories of my childhood. I could remember my mom before she was sick. So I realized that that was a key part of starting to unlock the grief for myself.

I definitely gravitated towards your book, as I lost my mother to cancer in October of last year. It’s something you can’t image enduring as a bystander, but you also can’t help but imagine what it’s like for your loved one to be taking all that radiation and pain. Healing and decaying simultaneously. It’s a very ugly process.

• I’m so sorry.

To me, it’s more than just time moving that helps you keep trucking on so I wanted to get a sense of what did that for yourself with your latest LP, Jubilee. The single “Be Sweet” is a dance-pop ballad and you’ve stated that you tried to unlock more joy with this record, which it does radiate. How did you find the strength to make something like that as opposed to your first two records that dealt with the insurmountable toll grief takes on oneself?

• I'm usually a really outspoken, open book type person and when she died, I was actually really quiet. I had a really hard time talking to people about how I felt. There aren't a lot of people our age that have gone through this kind of thing. I didn't really want to talk to my friends about it, because none of my friends had lost their parents. So it wasn't really like comforting to me, honestly. I think that that's kind of why I started making art and talking about it with myself, or like saying the things that I wanted to be said to me in a way through my work, because I just couldn't have that in my personal life. I just spent the last two records and then the book I wrote on grief. My mom died six years ago at this point, and even though that's always going to be a wound I live with, it's a smaller one. It's not like a gaping hole in the same way that it was when she first died, you know. Joy is still a really big part of my life, and it's another topic that I'm interested in exploring. I felt like it was time to explore something else in my life. There's a lot of different parts of my life that aren't just grief. I've spent so many years really investigating that, that I really finally felt like it was time to do something else.

Was there any similar approach to writing the book as there was when creating the first two records?

• It's pretty different. I think, in some ways, the way that you collect source material is similar. You kind of lean into your sensitivities as an artist, and you find meaning in the ordinary, and I think in that way, they're really similar. But writing a book, it's definitely a much longer process and a much more difficult process for me. Usually, I feel like songwriting is a little bit more free and intuitive.

With the book and the albums, it reminded me of Phil Elverum’s discography, A Crow Looked At Me in particular. You have the book that gives a very honest heartbreaking narrative so personal to who you are, and you have the first two albums that explore this idea of grief in a more creative fashion with metaphors and now with your third record, you’re speaking to the latter part of the tragedy. Yourself being a big Mount Eerie fan and Pacific Northwest native, did you use any of his work as inspiration for how to weave your projects at all? His work is deeply honest and personal and I’ve read that this is the kind of art that you gravitate towards.

• Yeah, I'm actually such a huge fan of Phil. I feel like we do really different things. I love his songwriting so much and I do feel like I’m a really personal songwriter, but I don't feel like we have the same style in that way at least. I was really inspired by that album though. I had a similar experience where he talks about [his late wife] Geneviève Castrée and walking to therapy together. Over the course of her illness, it became harder and harder to just like, walk two blocks. In my book, I talk about the time where my mom and I used to walk around the house. And slowly and slowly, she became unable to do two times around the house, and then we could hardly do one time around the house or in the house. That was a really, really heartbreaking memory that I got from that song. And yeah, I think that I really admire Phil largely because, he just is so personal and so vulnerable. That’s part of what makes his work so captivating. I think that like really encouraged me to let myself do that as well. That alone is an art.

When it was announced that a third record would be out in June, many outlets reported Jubilee as a more light-hearted LP most likely due to the subject matter of the previous releases. I think that it has a more poppy sound perhaps but a good amount of the tracks deal with heavy topics as well. How would you describe it?

• I wouldn’t describe this as a light-hearted record. I think the theme is joy, but certainly there aren't 10 songs about pure happiness (laughs). There's songs about struggling to feel joy, and reminding yourself to feel joy and leaving bad situations or people to experience joy. I think it's a broader theme, but I wouldn't say that any of the songs are particularly lighter. They may be a little bit less sad, because it isn’t largely about death as much. I mean, I think for this record, I felt a lot of pressure to make it a very confident, very full record as a third record. I think Soft Sounds had a little bit more anxiety about a sophomore slump. I think for this one, I just wanted to like flex every muscle and really have a very competent boisterous record.

Do you think you achieved your goal of making this record your Homogenic moment?

• I don't think I got anywhere near the excellence of Homogenic, but that I am very proud of what I made (laughs). I do think it's the best thing I've ever written.

Okay, weird question. On the cover of Jubilee, a number of persimmons hang from the ceiling by string. When my mom was in hospice care, I’d stay with her most nights and the family would visit every chance they got. My grandpa came several times and on more than one occasion, he brought persimmons. I had never seen or heard of this fruit before and once I did research on it, I wondered how my grandpa ended up with a persimmon tree in his backyard. It’s very prevalent in Asian culture but not so much in Hispanic culture, which my family is part of. It had no taste really and looked like a the offspring of a tomato and nectarine. It feels bittersweet in a sense to have yet another connect to you and your work through very personal situations so I have to ask, what is the significance behind the fruit?

• It's pretty prevalent in Asian cultures, the persimmon. I mean, I am also like, not a big fan of persimmons (laughs). My mom had a friend that lived with us during her hospice care, and she actually brought persimmons. I remember feeling kind of excluded by the experience because I never really ate them growing up. It seems bizarre that like, I was just kind of encountering them. In Japanese culture, and in Korean culture, maybe Taiwanese culture as well, they'll hang up persimmons. They start off as these like, really bitter, hard fruits. Then they hang them up and they dry and mature and sweeten over time. They become sweet, dried fruit at the end so I kind of like the idea of being a hard, bitter person that’s hung up on display and left to mature. You’re letting yourself sweeten over time.

I appreciate the genuine personality you bring not only to your art but to the world with your story. I think this record is such a strong LP and I’m happy to hear that you’ve been exploring new topics of life that some find incredibly difficult to locate after tragedy. I have two copies of your book and will lend one out to members of my family, as it helps to hear of someone who has dealt with a similar situation to myself. I can’t wait to see where the book and album take you and also eagerly await to see you on tour!

• Aw, thanks Jacob. I really appreciate it. I can’t wait to see my action figure (laughs)!!!!!

Thanks for the conversation Michelle Zauner.